Welcome to the Luner Way-Station project group
Welcome to the Lunar Way-Station project group. The Planetary Society has asked Space Generation and the MoonMars Workshop to work with them to study and recommend the first steps to be taken in the development of an international lunar way-station that will be usable by all nations exploring the moon.
ashish mistry
Hello everybody,
My name is Bill Tandy. I currently work in the aerospace industry after having just recently completed my Master's degree from the University of Texas at Austin. I have an amazing job that allows me to work on some of the coolest current projects, but I know that the future has the potential to be filled with even more ambitious undertakings. My aim here is to contribute in whatever way that I can to your project goals.
Greetings. My name is Ben McGee, a planetary geologist currently working in the environmental restoration program of a government contractor (USA). My published research experience to date includes technical field expeditions/explorations of Alaskan glaciers, naturally supercooling rivers in Wyoming, and convective vortices (dust devils) in the Nevada desert. I'm a field scientist with my eyes firmly fixed on the Moon and Mars, and I hope to bring some boots-to-the-ground experience and a planetary perspective to the table in helping develop a lunar waystation. This is an exciting time in history, and I'm here to contribute in any way that I can. Let's get started.
Hi. My name is Kathryn Johnson. I'm a senior in chemical engineering at the University of South Carolina (USA). I'm going to be a moderator for the Lunar Way Station project. I'll admit now that my background may somewhat limit my ability to contribute technically to the discussions in this particular forum, but I'm eager to learn, and I look forward to seeing what we can come up with for this important project. So let's get this moving!
Kathryn
FYI--Unfortunately, I won't be making the trip to Hyderabad, for various reasons, but hopefully I'll be able to meet you all in person some day, maybe next year in Glasgow.
Hello everyone, my name is Dag Evensberget. I'm 27 years old and I'm from Oslo, Norway.
Currently I am pursuing a masters's degree in Space Studies at the International Space University in France. I also have a master's degree in Industrial Mathematics and the equivalent of a bachelor's degree in Engineering Physis from the Norwegian University of Science and Technology.
I am in the process of applying to the Space Generation Congress; I wanted to check out the forums (and lurk a bit) before I apply. Right now the forums appear dormant (like an abandoned moonbase ;-) ) - is this because the application deadline is still a month away or have you people taken your discussion elsewhere?
Dag
Dag,
To my knowledge, the communication you find here is the extent of the participation thus far. This is my first time being involved with SpaceGeneration activities, so I don't know if this is expected to pick up shortly before the application deadline or not. However, in any case, good to see you around here! Care to join the Lunar Waystation venture?
It's my first time being involved as well, however my flatmate here in France told me today that last year the discussion did not pick up until July (!), so I guess there is won't be a rush just yet. I would indeed care to join this venture so count me in :-)
I am Jaganath. I am currently in the dual graduate program (Engineering and Public Policy) in the University of Maryland. I work in the Aerospace Engineering Dept. and the School of Public Policy. I was working with the Indian Defense Establishment in one of its missile labs before getting here.
My interests currently span from space engineering research to space weapons policy. I would love to join this team.
ok has anyone heard of pillar and room mining
this would be the way to go for the colony
basically you carve alot of halls in a grid pattern, ising the
pillars in between to hold the roof
now from here we have options
first
how to seal the cave
second
how to heat the cave
finally,
how to supply the cave with neccesities
i have ideas on all of these topics but i wouold like to see
some of the ideas on your minds first
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one kind word can warm 3 winter months
japanese proverb
Moving farther below the surface = 30 meters helps, but we will have to accept some leakage into the surounding rock which has been in vacuum for billions of years. There should be two or three hallways to the surface each of which should have an airlock similar but larger than the air locks on the ISS = International space station. Likely there should be three independent areas connected by airlocks, in case of a disaster in one of the areas. Neil
for sealing the cave once carved
you take sliulicate powder (glass)
mix it like glaze for ceramics
then coat the whole cave
sice the cave should have a airlock
then you turn it into a big kiln
heat the whole room
allow the "glaze" to set
remeber to fill all the porous material especially
then allow to cool for a few days (or measured time)
and you have a completely sealed room
just an idea to think on
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one kind word can warm 3 winter months
japanese proverb
Heating will likely be a minor problem, even below the surface of Pluto. The construction process will likely make the habitat too hot for humans and heat conducts through rock slowly. The body heat of the humans may be sufficient to keep the habitat at a comfortable temperature. More likely cooling will be needed. Fortunately, at least one company expects to market soon a system that uses wires (instead of pipes carrying coolant) to connect the inside and outside air conditiong units. This works on much the same principle as these small refrigerators which you can plug into your cars cigarete lighter. Neil
also how do we get the machines up there, and what kind of machines do we want to use
considering the gravity of the moon
we could use lighter vehicles, (carbon fiber base with internal structure
also we could use water teck to carve
since heated water = steam
steam at high pressure can cut through diamond
IDEAS?
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one kind word can warm 3 winter months
japanese proverb
That may be the best way as soon as the air locks are in place. The water will be mixed with the air after it does the cutting. We will need equipment to reduce the hummidity caused by humans exhailing, but the air purifing system will need to be seriously over size to remove polutants produced by other rock cutting methods. Neil
Hi Ken,
Your pillar and room mining idea seems great. But i am curious if there has studies undertaken on it. I was doing some research on Lunar stations last semester...i don't remember finding anything on that. I believe NASA Moon-Mars mission tries more to use space-habs in space vehicles for modular Way stations. What do you think of that?
Can you tell something more on your idea? Is there an URL that talks more on this?
well i know if no site that talks about this
although through my own research i have found this would be an eccelent way to make a habitat
although the initial living space should be earth made
the idea of a long term bas has to be built from the materials on the moon/mars
this mining teqnique is eccelent fo our puposes
plus after the first layer
the further layers will be easier to make
considering the dust problem
--------------------------------------
one kind word can warm 3 winter months
japanese proverb
How about the question of having base in the near-term especially during the proposed Moon-Mars program from NASA? I think that should involve minimal in-situ resource use for the base. What do you propose?
Your idea is definitely a consideration for a Moon base. I saw the link you have posted. Can you send more technical studies on it?
We are already using a RADAR like system called ground tomograpy to find tunnels and caverns as much as several kilometers below the surface of moons and planets, including Earth. Likely, by the time we need to know where we will land, we will find a cave system that will work well with very little rock cutting which we can perhaps occupy on the very first mission. We will, of course, need a small back up habitat that we brought from Earth in case there is an unpleasent surprise when we attempt to finalize the natural underground habitat. Neil
MY SELF ASHISH MISTRY.
I AM STUDENT OF 3RD YEAR AERONAUTICAL ENGG.
I AM INTERESTED IN LUNAR WAY STATION PROJECT.
LUNAR WAY STATION PROVE VERY HELPFUL IN ESTABLISHING THE LUNAR BASE AND ALSO STUDYING THE MOON ORIGIN AND ITS SYSTEM.
THE STATION WILL PROVE VERY USEFUL FOR CARRYOUT THE EXPERIMENTAL STUDIES ETC...
THE LUNAR WAY STATION IS ALSO USEFUL IN SPACE TOURISM AND IN MAKING OF SPACE COLONY IN FUTURE.....
BY STUDYING THE LAGRANGE POINT SYSTEM .
I HAVE FOUND THAT L1 (LAGRANGE L1 POINT) POINT IS SUITABLE POINT FOR THE LOCATION OF LUNAR WAY STATION.
IT IS ABOUT 3,25,000 KM FROM EARTH AND 56,000 KM FROM MOON.
THE ORBITAL VELOCITY OF LUNAR WAY STATION IS 1.10 KM/S. AND IT WILL TAKE 22 DAYS TO COMPLETE THE ORBIT.
THE STATION REMAIN IN BETWEEN OF THE EARTH AND THE MOON.
THIS IS THE CALCULATIONS I HAVE CALCULATED AFTER STUDYING THE LAGRANGE POINT SYSTEM.FOR MORE IMFORMATION SEARCH LAGRANGE POINT IN WWW.GOOGLE.COM
right l1 is an ecceelent spot for a way station
on an industrial level
we can use this spot to make carboon-nano tubes
for the space elevator
and other purposes
because of the distance from earths magnetic field the
tubes will grow at more uniform patterns
( ie the 12 atoms in a circle stacked as to form a tube
if i had the 3d program effieciency i would send a a dl
of the atomic structure
but the lagrange point is a industrial hotspot
mabe we can use this
--------------------------------------
one kind word can warm 3 winter months
japanese proverb
I think that is all correct except 325,000 kilometers from Earth to L1. It likely takes more delta V to make a stop at L1 on the way to the moon, but L1 is definately important for a Lunar space elevator www.liftport.com if we ever build a space elevator on the moon. L1 has some advantages for a space colony for humans and a stagging location to go to Mars and more distant places. L1 may be reachable by space craft which can not reach other desinations due to partial failure of some of the systems, so it will be valuable for travelers aid purposes. Neil
well not much delta-v should be neccisary to stop at the way station by definition
all you need is enought eccentricity to make it to l1
then you are at a state of nuetrality
then given a small delta-v
you change your gravitational center from the earth to the moon then the moon's gravity pulls you towards it
so i disagree with the defined neccesity for major change in delta-v to make a stop at the way station
although if you consider higher speeds for faster travel
then this would be an issue, but the issue also presents itself when you arrive at the moon also
the faster you go
the more you have to slow down
--------------------------------------
one kind word can warm 3 winter months
japanese proverb
hello friends myself ashish mistry,i am studying in 3rd year aeronautical engg.
i would like to share my ideas of the establishing the lunar way station in sgc team working on it.
first of all we have to find the necessity and benefits of the lunar way station.
then the location of it between earth and moon have to find.
then we have to design the lunar way station .
What is lunar way station?
It is an interface between the earth and moon.
The International Lunar Way Station (ILWS) will be a little “city in space” orbiting 3,25,000 km above the Earth. The space station will be a place where people from around the world can live and study in space over long periods of time. The many modules of the station—from its laboratories to living quarters to power sources—will be constructed in space. The ILWS is the most ambitious and expensive construction project ever attempted, but it will someday serve as a stepping-stone for future space exploration.
Hi everybody,
My name is Pieter (it sounds as 'Peter' in English) and I am a Belgian Student Civil Engineer. I must admit that I just am in my first year of University, so I guess I won't be a very big help in the technical aspects of this topic. But the whole subject interested me a lot, so maybe I can contribute to general ideas or visionary thoughts. I am willing to learn a lot, so I hope I can be of any help.
I am glad Ashish gave us a working definition of the topic. As it's sound for me, this 'City in Space' sounds as a brilliant adventure. But also I have a bit fear that if we don't organize everything well; we might have the scenario of what the ISS is now. It is coming closer to its retirement date, and it still isn't finished in construction. So the question of how getting it up there is a very important one, with the eye on succes. (in the same way we should probably consider the construction methode: is a modular construction al around a good method? or does it take too much time, money, launches...)
I hope these ideas can be of some help.
delivered to L1. If we think more mass delivered by 2020, failure is likely as large scaling up often has unpleasent surprises. Likely we should think anything having a mass over 100,000 kilograms needs to be delivered to L1 in moduals, as giant rockets are more costly than the funds likely to become available. We really need a major break though to make construction of an L1 station affordable. Neil
Hi, Pieter,
As one of the earlier members on the board, I've been trying to remain consistently active and apologize for the late post. (I got married last month, and have been understandably occupied!)
To clarify, the discussions offered by Ashish are somewhat tangential to our topic here as stated by the moderator. It is my understanding that we are to select a research objective from a list of potential topics as defined by the following Planetary Society report:
http://www.spacegeneration.org/index.php?q=node/39
To that end, there are initial technical discussions underway in the Project Work and Tasks board under the "Setting the Ground Rules" thread. Please feel free to join - we need help in selective and flushing out an approachable objective from the list.
And don't worry - just because you're new at the university doesn't mean you can't make a significant contribution to the project! Just dive in, and let's get started!
first
you can be more help then you know
never underestimate you abilities
although you are a first year student,
you can be a large help
considering you have not yet been given bounderies
set thinkin you know
you have more to offer than you think
do not doubt yourself for a moment
if you have an idea say it
even if it gets critisism
at least it prevokes thought
--------------------------------------
one kind word can warm 3 winter months
japanese proverb
Hello all,
If you get a chance, please read the document provided by the planetary society that is posted on the project page for this group at http://www.spacegeneration.org/index.php?q=node/39. That is the true definition of the Lunar Way Station we are working with. The Planetary Society has asked us to come up with a way of helping them.
Cheers
Hey all,
Im looking to get into SGAC this year, and this seemed like a very interesting topic to me. I am finshing my second year as an aerospace/mechanical engineering major at the University at Buffalo (USA). I am also starting a SEDS at UB with several other students.
Lunar Way Station...just the sound of it is ledgendary. Count me in.
I've got a couple of ideas myself. Station on the moon? An application of Dymaxion housing seems appealing here.
So where do we begin?
~Nick Alterio
Hi, Nick;
About the Dymaxion housing suggestion: are you referring to a geodesic dome, Fuller's tensegrity construction method, or the 4-D housing concept?
In any case, Fieber, Huebner-Moths, Moore, and Paruleski wrote a fantastic series of lunar architecture papers utilizing Fuller's designs. I can't find a copy online, but you might be able to order them from your university library.
Hey Marcia,
Thanks for the pointer to those lunar architecture papers....I'll definately look that up.
Personally, I think the geodesic dome would be the best place to start. To make this first step, its gotta all be about efficiency. The geodesic dome would be the most efficient in terms of living space and materials needed to construct it, which would put lesser demands on spaceship payload to get this house from Earth to the Moon.
Plus I really liked how the plumming works, which recycles the very little water the system uses.
Either way, Im pretty sure we wont be starting off with a log cabin! It would have to be something along the lines I previously mentioned.
~Nick Alterio
Nick,
I'm a big fan of the dome, myself. I'm wondering if there is a way to lighten it up, maybe by combining with the inflatable hab concept? The dome could provide a quickly built framework/loose shield for the inflatable hab. The grid would provide an excellent support structure for items like solar panels and provide a gap between the inflatable section and the Lunar soil necessary for cosmic radiation shielding.
-Marcia
Welcome to the project, Nick! I was amongst the earlier sign-ons to the project, and while not immediately clear from the intro material on this introduction board, we've already been given a starting point. The Planetary Society has published a report with a number of technical problems already set out for us to select from for attacking the foundation of a Lunar Waystation. I'd recommend checking out the Project Work and Tasks board under the "Technical Resources" and "Setting the Ground Rules" threads. -Let us know what you think!
All -
Being that this is an introductions thread, I would recommend migrating any technical discussions to the "Project Work and Tasks" boards. Additionally, there appears to be some ambiguity here about the objectives of the lunar waystation project. Admittedly, it is not immediately clear upon arrival to these boards that the purpose of this project is not an open forum for the hypothetical design of a lunar waystation, e.g. domed habitats, Lagrange stations, etc. --Instead, the Planetary Society has published a report outlining the necessary fundamental steps for the future construction of a lunar waystation, and we have been tasked with selecting amongst these fundamental steps something we can sink our teeth into and present at the SGC 2007.
-To this end, there has been some preliminary technical discussion on the "Setting the Ground Rules" post thread on the Project Work and Tasks board, which I would recommend checking out. Additionally, there are links to resources available on the project tasks board regarding the current state of development of lunar infrastructural components and ISRU techniques.
I by no means mean any disrespect to those engaged in more hypothetical discussions here, but we have a relatively limited timeframe to approach some of the issues set out by the Planetary Society, and we can use all of the brainpower there we can get!
-Hope to see you all on the technical threads!
Hello, everyone. My name is Mike Roberts and I am also in the process of applying to the Space Generation Conference, and I found this project to be the most in-line with my interests and skills.
A bit about me: I have a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering from the Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, Georgia, U.S. Currently I am also pursuing space systems engineering studies through the distance learning program at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California, U.S.
By day I am a hardware sustaining engineer in the consolidated avionics and software laboratories of the International Space Station program. I work for Boeing at the Johnson Space Center, Houston, Texas, U.S. I don't have any academic background in design of lunar bases or anything of the sort, but based on my technical knowledge, I might be able to assist with some aspects such as communications architecture and electric power.
Hi everyone. I'm Olav Grasvik from Norway, and I'm currently studying space technology at Narvik University College (now in my 3rd year). I also have 7 years experience from the Royal Norwegian Air Force. I just resigned there to persue my dream about working in the space industry, a more peaceful endevour.
I just received a mail about the Space Generation Conference, which I've never heard of before. So this is a last minute (literally) attempt to find out what this is...
I must say that the Space Generation idea is incredible interesting, and I hope I will get to know you better :)) I look forward to take part in the discussions, and hopefully contribute in a constructive way.
i hear you guys (noweigians )have the most advanced
system for hydrogen infrastructure on the planet
including a refiigerator size hydrogen production/fueling station
do you have any news on this ?
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one kind word can warm 3 winter months
japanese proverb
Hi, it's true that we have a fine development regarding hydrogen production. I have no specific news about this, but if you follow this link you may learn more about current projects and development in Norway:
http://www.rcn.no/servlet/Satellite?cid=1135106482649&pagename=hydrogen%...
Hope it will be helpful.
Sincerely
Hello everyone. My name is Michael, I am a junior at the University of Kansas; located in Lawrence, Kansas USA. I am studying aerospace engineering.
I am very excited about lunar architecture and exploration and look forward to working with you all!
I was unable to find the correct link on SGAC's website that outlines the Planetary Society's proposal for the lunar way-station. Is the following the correct document?
http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/aim_for_mars/lunarwaystation....
Further computer illiteracy. I seem to be having trouble posting shared files to the MMW project page. Can anyone guide me as to the correct way to do this?
If the file posting function really is not working, may I suggest setting up a Google account so we can share our documents? I think it may be a good idea to have at least as technical library of sorts, hosting the Planetary Society's report and the links Mr. McGee et. al. have posted.
The link is on this page
http://www.spacegeneration.org/index.php?q=node/39
as for file uploading, are you going to
http://www.spacegeneration.org/index.php?q=node/50
and selecting the link at the bottom?
Hi :) - I really want to contribute to this group, but I have some questions I hope may be answered here:
1. I'm interested in participating in the Lunar Waystation group - how do I know I am accepted as a part of this group?
2. I've seen det document released regarding thoughts about the Lunar Waystation, the one from 2004... Are there any papers/documents from this group's recent work (last year or so?)?
3. How many members are in this workgroup so far? Are all the members present in this forum?
4. How are the workload distributed in this group? How does the group function?
I may still have some more questions, but this is because I would like to know how I best may contribute. Can anyone help the new guy? Please?
Olav Grasvik
Hey Olav!
My understanding is that by simply showing up and expressing interest, we're part of the group. I began showing up here in late January, and at that point no significant discussion regarding the Lunar Waystation had yet begun. I know of no work accomplished by this workgroup prior to that point, and all discussion since then is available here on the post threads. As far as workload distribution goes, we're not yet to that point in the project discussion. I've been trying to post more recent technical documents to the "Technical Resources" thread to give us a background and starting point, but I feel as though the most useful thing you can do to contribute at this point is to weigh in on which of the objectives detailed in the Planetary Society report you feel we could realistically approach here. Once the active members on the boards here (and it appears that there are just a few of us, really) come to an agreement about what our objectives should be, then we can start dividing up workloads based on our respective strengths and availability. I personally have been pushing for the conceptual design of a Lunar Demarcation Array, (i.e. a physical lunar navigation beacon system,) simply because I feel that as a stand-alone system that any potenal lunar "client" would be able to use, a navigation array of this sort is something we, with varying levels of skill, experience, and expertise, could crunch numbers and perform relatively simple calculations to determine a realistic feasability. This is, in turn, something the Planetary Society could immediately use, which is (as I understand it) our ultimate goal.
Hope this helps, and welcome aboard!
Ad Luna!
Thanks a lot Ben, I appreciate your inputs - and thanks for det welcome :)
I will study closer the report from the Planetary Society, and review the discussions in the technical thread. I also agree to the importance to seperate the general discussions from the technical issues in this forum, a clear structure to our work will benefit us all.
I look forward to work with you guys :)) Hope we will reach our goal together.
Cheers
Olav
Hello everybody!
I just want to introduce my self; I am Bernd Bewer a student of aerospace engineering at the University of Stuttgart, Germany, in my third year.
Due to a six month internship at the European Astronaut Center I have some experience with human spaceflight specially focused on astronaut training for the Columbus system.
I hope that I can support the team as soon as possible!
Greetings!
Bernd
Hi everyone. I'm Ashish Sharma (Boyd)from India itself. Currently i'm studying Electronins & Communication Engineering at Jaypee University of Information Technology, INDIA. I also have 3 years experience in aerospace.
I have experience with spaceflight as i am currently working for NASA's University level project for designing smooth Martian landing aircraft.
I look forward to take part in the discussions, and contribute in a constructive way.
Nice of you to join, Boyd :)
With your background and current work project regarding the landing craft, your inputs will absolutely be valuable. If you study the report from the Planetary Society, which provides us a platform for examining the necessary requirements, you will find some issues there regarding some of the needs for successful landings (like making a gravity model, setting comm standards, navigation aides, common geodetic net, landing site selection and crew recovery).
Looking forward to learn your ideas :)
Cheers
Olav
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Joined: 2004-01-09